I have seen lots of posts here bashing the US. Now the president of Iran says he wants to wipe a nation off the face of the earth, and I don't see a peep about it here anywhere...?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4383856.stm

Can't you tell the slant of most online forums?

Well it is hardly something you can discuss, there is not much you can say about it. Obviously its bad, and Iran is a vicious theocracy that treats those who do not follow their interpretation of Islam in a way that is utterly disgusting but there is not much to say beyond 'disgusting'. If you feel there is something beyond that to say on the matter, please do, and we can discuss it, but as is its not really something you can give any meaningful discussion on, because hardly anyone in a modern, secular, Western society is going to find that comment agreeable.

I would like to know where the outrage and anger are..?
If the US had said something like that, you KNOW this board would have been a buzz
with all sorts of slams directed towards us.
Yet..on this subject there is nothing but silence...

You asked why.

Erm...maybe because it is full of hot air and they will never get to "wipe" any nation off the face of the earth? The difference is Bush isn't full of hot air. He is actually responsible for a very expensive illegal war which he engaged on false information, in which millions have been affected and tens of innocent civilians thousands have died. Let's see, who do I hate more - Bush who is responsible for all those deaths or some Iranian fool who said something idiotic?

Amazing how many people forgot the Iran/Iraq war. And never say never. We don't truely know what they are capable of OR have. Although we do know they are mingling in with the Iraq war.

I also have always had a serious problem with this statement and for good reason:



Can you differentiate the 'innocent civilians', from those that are hiding in with them and dressing like them? Namely the terrorists? No, you can't. You don't know if 5,000 of those were terrorists or 15,000 of them were. No doubt, innocents have been lost. But when the last time you heard anyone say, "And today, 25 innocents died, and 75 terrorists were killed."? Usually its, "And today 15 people died in fighting.". Pretty vague if you ask me. Could be 15 civilians, or 15 terrorists, or a nice mixture.

Can you or anyone else prove how many of those were innocent civilians and how many were terrorists? Most likely not. Like I said, innocents have been lost. But I doubt we will ever know just how many since the terrorists like to mingle in with the innocents and get them involved any way they can. Why? So people make statements like the one what you just did. When was the last time you heard how many innocents the terrorists have killed? Think about it.

You are welcome to have a problem with my statement but I do believe tens of thousands of civilians have died. I don't hear "15 people died in fighting" but I do read "15 insurgents died" when we don't even know if all of those people were insurgents or terrorists. This can work the other way as well. Tens of thousands of "terrorists" were killed - how do you know or not if most of them were actually innocent civilians? You don't know do you? Also tens of thousands of "terrorists" may have been innocent amongst terrorists or mistakenly believed to be terrorists. Using the term "terrorists" and "insurgents" is a smart way of making people turn the other eye because they never question whether some of those people may have been innocent. The US or British could drop a bomb on 50 people and say they were all "insurgents" and because of that term no one would bat an eye.

The way you have written your statement is belittling what has happened. I love the way you are trying to fluff the fact that many, many innocent people have died. You are trying to make the numbers sound smaller than they are with your "No doubt, innocents have been lost." comment which makes it sound like just 25 people have died in the entire war or something. Like it or not, scores of innocents have died in Iraq AND and Afghanistan. You can twist it however you want.

Another thing. To many Iraqis it's the American soldiers who are the "terrorists". They are undisputedly the invaders. What do you have to say about that?



Amazing how many people forget who supported and provided BOTH of those countries with arms and WMDs. And the US and UK government (my government) did a WONDERFUL job making out Iraq to be such a HUGE threat. What a great job they did. You also conveniently forget the US government supported Saddam in that war so it was different during the Iran/Iraq war. Today they would NOT support Iran towards attacking another country so no way in hell it would happen especially when Iran know they would start a war with the world.

Thing is, a terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. US Soldiers are terrorists. In the eyes of many Iraqi's that is. How do you define a terrorist...

Well before the US got there I can tell you how many terrorists were there....none!
But since you believe that wiping out a few thousand people to get to a few bad guys is okay, perhaps you should begin with the obliteration of the most violent society on earth...namely your own. Sure a few hundred million innocents would die, but with all the criminals and sleepr terrorist cells mixed in there...it's just so hard to tell them apart.
The US is an invading force and is still open as targets as is dictated by the Geneva Convention. Those attacking US military targets are not terrorists, they are the resistance. Those attacking the civilians are definitely terrorists. But since you can't tell them apart, just blast'em all....good platform. Disgusting, but not unexpected from the Dubya neocon crazies.

Perfectly said TMF!

The U.S. has been invaded by their foreign fighters (i.e. terrorists). Remember 1993? Remember 2001? Remember New Years 2000? They were all on American soil by 'foreign fighters' (terrorists). There have also been numerous plots stopped here in the U.S. from those from the middle east (and elsewhere.) against targets in America. It may not be troops invading this country directly, its worse. It could be your neighbor that wants to kill as many Americans as possible. That flight you get on tomorrow morning may just be hijacked and slammed into a place of interest killing even more people. Whereas we are trying to limit civilian deaths overall, the terrorists are trying to take as many as possible. Even if it means taking their own people with them to accomplish their missions. We also don't know how many of those 'innocents' the terrorists themselves have killed. But because the U.S. is there, it's "lets all blame them.".

Iran won't do crap. All talk, no show. And even if they did, they would have more countries breathing down their throat than anything currently imagineable. Sure they'll instigate the Iraq situation. But they won't directly try and act involved.

As for the WMD of thing. Gee, I wonder how else the U.S. knew Iraq had WMD. Keep in mind Iraq is mainly desert and is roughly the size of California. They had no U.N. involvement for quite a few years. If your neighbor helped create a methlab in your house, and you had 1 week to hide it without his or anyone elses interference, do you think you could? Do you think you could hide it so well no one would find it if they came over to look for it a week later? The funny thing is, everyone is trying to justify whats in front of them. Could you find even 1,000 missles in a desert the size of California, thats buried under the sand? OR was maybe even disassembled and carried out of the country? Probably not. At least not for awhile. Everyone is so busy looking in warehouses, they aren't looking underground. Sand moves and shifts all the time. I could bury a weapon in a sandbox, and 1 hour later odds are you wouldn't even know I was there. Yet I could go back in a few hours and know where exactly to look. And we've found a few hidden 'stashes' in the sand. Saddam and Iraq had more than enough time to hide the weapons away from prying eyes. We know they have them because we gave them to them. Do you honestly believe he just 'up and got rid of them'? Highly doubtful. Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they arent there.

Like I said, we know innocents have died. But if you hate America, and your brother was killed by Americans in a fire fight against them...would you admit that? Or would you say he was innocent and try and 'fluff' the number up to build anti-american support? NO ONE really knows for sure what the # is. NO ONE knows the true percentage and are going by so many varying inaccurate and unproven tests and and such, its crazy. I've seen NUMEROUS headlines that say "100,000 Civilians killed in Iraq and growing".....only to get half way down the page and have them say "10,000-30,000 possible civilians dead". Great journalism huh? And even then they say "they don't know". You can line 30,000 people side by side and odds are you couldn't pick the terrorist out from the civilian. We know people have died. Could be 1 or could be 1 million. How are we supposed to know? We don't. We aren't there. There isn't exactly any sort of accurate 'innocent people killed' death tolls going on, since we don't know who was innocent and who was a terrorist. We could bomb a whole building full of known terrorists. Yet the news media there would say, "Today, 15 innocent people were killed in a bomb attack...". Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



In the eyes of SOME Iraqi's. Not MANY. You don't exactly see even half of Iraq fighting the U.S. troops do you? No. Hell, it could have been like the Iran/Iraq war if they wanted it to be. And in fact, its been publically stated numerous times around the world that the majority of people fighting our troops there AREN'T from Iraq. This has even been said in numerous interviews with terrorist leaders themselves.

A terrorist is: A radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities. They usually use religion to cover for their political causes/beliefs and uses terror to help drive their cause.



Funny. What would you call the Iraqi's that invaded Kuwait? Innocents? It works both ways. We're arent exactly calling it our 51st state either. And we arent having innocent civilians get in airliners so we can crash them into buildings without them knowing. Oh wait, the U.S. occupied Japan, and much of Europe after World War 2 for quite a few years. Yeah, we all know how horrible that turned out right? And many more lives were lost then on all sides.

I honestly find it horrific how some people are trying to downplay the terrorism thats happening by making excuses for them. Osama Bin Laden PUBLICALLY declared war on the U.S. during Clintons term in office in the 90's. He also PUBLICALLY stated how he will not differentiate from an American civilian or soldier....from man, woman OR child. If you are an American, you are a target. Problem is, not enough people took him seriously enough until 9/11. And now look at the mess. Blame Bush all you want. This goes back to as late as the 70's and 80's where many of the seeds were planted.

Regardless, while I do understand that civilian lives were lost, who am I to judge how many? I'm not there...and with how unreliable the news services around the world have proven themselves to be, usually using hype, propaganda, etc, I don't trust them. And I least of all I don't trust the internet. There could be duplicate #'s involved inflating the #'s, could be lies mixed with truth, etc..

The problem is too much of this is politically motivated with heavy religious overtones. As well, its a power play. Many of these factions would love nothing more than to be the next Taliban...or worse. But the U.S. is the excuse for everything isn't it? All this finger pointing. Amazing how no one points even one back at themselves.

You people are amazing you know that..
I think one day you will realize you had better this hot air seriously.
I would hope more serious than you all took Hitler to be.

But you are right about one thing Israel isn't going anywhere.

And the link between Saddam's regime and terrorist cells were ?

At least downunder this invasion of another soveign nation was argued as being a method of reducing terrorism So all the extra millions being spent on counter terrorist training and equipment downunder would of course have been much more if we didn't help with the invasion of Iraq?

Condolences to the family and friends of the 2,000 US soldiers killed in the line of duty

Doesn't that make your president a terrorist too? America didn't have to invade Iraq. They should of left the UN to do their job instead of coming in and ######ing it all up (excuse my french). If they suspect Iraq having weapons of mass disctruction, they should be very sure about it fist before invading.

Well in The Netherlands they callled the ambasador of Iran to explain this. They demand an excuse and said these kind of talk will not be tolerated.

Iraq Iraq Iraq. Yet no one mentions Afghanistan. People are quick to jump on and say it was OK to go into Afghanistan, but then they say not Iraq. What did Afghanistan do to the U.S.? Sure they probably had/have Bin Laden and the Taliban, but supporting one and not the other, for essentially the same things, is insane. Terrorism existed in the middle east LONG before the U.S. ever got there. Anyone thats read their history books knows that.

The U.N. weapons inspecters were only looking in places they were told to look. Such as factories, Saddams palaces, etc. I highly doubt you were seeing them dig in the desert. Or going door to door. And with the fact there was more than enough time away from weapons inspectors and the outside world to hide the weapons, anyone with half a brain knows Saddam isn't going to be stupid enough to hide them in plain view. If you gave your neighbor $20, then you asked him for that $20 back 5 minutes later, and he said he didn't have it....would you believe him? Especially after knowing he had it? He couldn't have lost it since it was seen being put into his wallet. But just because he says he doesn't have it, does that mean he doesn't? Just because YOU can't find the $20, does that mean its not there? No. And since the Weapons Inspectors did not have the total overall free reign needed. As well, troops have found weapons caches in the desert. It will only be a matter of time before more is found there. Thats a lot of desert to hide stuff.

And keeping in mind the majority of 'insurgents' or terrorists that are fighting U.S. troops in Iraq AREN'T from Iraq...well that says something.

Difference being there is no one here from Iran to agrue their side and that Iran doesn't claim to be the great protector of Freedom, Democracy and Human rights


About the whole Iraq versus' Afghanistan thing, they are totally different the government made their intentions/reasoning clear on invading Afghanistan, invading Iraq was based on a lie (remember the 45 minute claim which it has since been proven was wrong/a lie) and if the US is so sure there are WMDs in Iraq why did they call off the hunt for them shortly after Bush was re-elected?

IMO its because we are too busy getting shot at to wanna be an open target in the desert. We gave them the weapons. Where else could they be? No one has seemed to of been able to answer that yet.

Too bad all some people in the middle east and elsewhere know is hate and at a young age are being taught to kill or taught jihad, rather than being taught anything constructive.

Unlike these 2 American girls http://forums.invisionpower.com/index.php?showtopic=196567 hate isn't just limited to the Middle East, your media just shows you more of it

As for the US selling them WMDs, maybe they were dismantled when they were told to? Find it quite hypocritical though that that could be used as an excuse for invasion "we sold them to you so we know you have them"

We don't know if its all an act, or if its legit. Regardless, even though their views are messed up, they aren't exactly waving guns around with an Iranian flag burning calling for a holy war either. At the age of 8.

Well we can all argue on if we should be in Iraq or not or why we are there. Doesn't do much good now does it? Its too late. We're there. What do you want done about it? We can impeach Bush and everything else, but that still changes nothing. And just up and pulling our troops out is suicide. Not just for us, but for the Iraqi people. The U.S. goes into Iraq and people complain. Saddam kills HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of his own people and he gets a slap on the wrist. WTF is up with that? Great work the U.N. did. Slap sanctions on the country...that ended up hurting the people more than it hurt Saddam. Oil-For-Food. Nice example.

As for Afghanistan...I don't think people know the whole story. Think about it. Did we prove Bin Laden was there? Did we prove that they or the Taliban were indeed a threat to the U.S.? Yet people justified that one. A see a hypocrisy forming.

Why do you involve religion intro terrorism? Would you have given the same definition before Bush came and crammed all this 'Islamist' terrorist crap into everyone's brains?

And as for Ahmadinejad's comments, they are just thin air. The political leaders in Iran say this kind of stuff all the time and they don't have the political or military strength to even think about attacking another country ( nor the religious right... but you wouldn't take my word on that would you? ). I think it was a stupid thing to say especially since Iran is in the spotlight for it's nuclear programs.

Well, who did Saddam get his weapons from...

Anyway, yes, the President of Iran shouldn't have said that, but so what? Its not like he can do anything is it. What some guy in the middle east says shouldn't be of such a worry to us anyway. Ofcourse, Blair and Bush are going to use this as a springboard to declare war on iran.

I'm pretty outraged and angry about the fact that two of the most powerful men in the White House are looking increasingly guilty of leaking a CIA agents name just because her husband made the White House look silly.

I'm pretty outraged and angry about multinational companies and their apparent disdain for their 3rd world employees.

I'm pretty outraged and angry about the fact that no one in the West apart from muslims seems to care about the Asian Earthquake.

I'm pretty outraged and angry that the world stood by and watched as a genocide happened in Sudan.

I'm pretty outraged and angry that my Prime Minister apparently thinks he should be able to throw me in prison for 3 months without charge, monitor my travels with ID cards and throw me in prison for 'glorifying terrorism' (whatever that means. Will be thrown in prison for wearing my Che Guevara T-Shirt I wonder?)

I'm pretty outraged that the world is toadying up to China because of its economy when it abuses human rights on a massive scale.

Flowerchild, dear, I can't speak for anyone else, but if I made a topic about everything I was outraged and angry about I'd probably be banned for spamming and Gen Chat would be filled to explosion with my outrage and anger.

It is because no one likes Americans.. they envy us

And when ever an American says that I can't help but laugh at your ego. Please tell me what there is for the rest of the western world to envy?

He has no idea really, but that is what they teach them.
Should we envy their inability to respond to a national disaster? How about their ineffectual intelligence system? Maybe their crime rate or national debt?



Apparently the UN did a great job. There were no WMD's just like the UN resolution called for.
No one is saying that Saddam was a nice guy. But it is up to the people of Iraq to form their own revolution. No one forced a revolution on the US in the 1700's. The did it themselves. Every great democracy is based on a revolution not on an imposed governance by an outsider with less-than-stellar motives.
Afghanistan admitted to harbouring Bin Laden and refused to give him up. There was world wide approval for the action that took place there. The Taliban was only a threat to itself, however Al Qaeda was a different story.

Exactly... jealousy, envy, hate, heck, the whole nine yards. As far as I'm concerned, they can stay jealous. < / American pride >

Wrong. The world love American culture, its traditions and people. People don't like your government - big difference - particularly the Bush administration. Maybe you think all those Americans who criticise and hate the current regime in the White House don't like Americans either?

People who say "they don't like us" try to be smart because when they employ words as "us" and "we" they try to include liberal Americans and others who are non-Republicans into siding with them. There is no "us" or "we" - the Democrats are not united with Bush lovers. Your country is divided. Liberal Americans don't like Republicans and they will never like you and thank God for that. By "us" and "we" you mean Republican Americans. Republican Americans pretend to care for their fellow Americans when they don't give a crap and hate anyone disagreeing with them and they certainly hate the international community unless they suck up to them.

I agree on some points, but according to you, I don't like my dad or aent for that matter. Perhaps you meant something different by that "liberals don't like republicans" thing.

I mean generally speaking Republicans and Democrats don't like each other. I know many of them who actually quite literally hate Republicans and vice versa. People who are very directly affected by politics. There is so much hatred that goes on between the camps like with the whole Cindy Sheehan thing and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's different when you are talking about family members like your dad though. My dad has his beliefs (like the fact he was and still could be very homophobic) and no matter what I will still love him because...he's my dad.

Like you did with Iraq's WMD years ago you mean? What a great danger they were with their guns, rocket launchers and sticks. A serious threat to the world.