For the year 2005, PeTA reported it killed over 90% of the animals it took into it's shelters. Additionally two of their employees now face 50 felony charges handed down from a Grand Jury. http://www.petakillsanimals.com/index.cfm
I implore you...if you support PeTA...think again. If you really want to help the animals, make a donation to your local shelter. They will actually use the money for good.

Isn't PETA supposed to help animals???

I thought they stood for that... >_>

Donating to your local shelter is a good idea, but I think if you really want to help animals the best thing to do is to stop eating them.

Pfft... I hate that argument.

If we stopped eating them there would be no need to keep so many alive, so we might as well just kill them and waste their bodies... useful.

I'll clarify a bit. I may not agree with people who eat animals, but if they're fine with it, then they're being consistent. But I think if someone is going to make a big outcry about someone else killing animals, or being cruel to animals, but is himself directly responsible for the death of nearly 100 animals every year, then... well that's rather inconsistent, no?

PeTA as a name literally stands for "People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals", but that isn't what they are, at least not anymore. It seems to me now that they are an uber-conservative vegan advocacy group. Though they're not above killing animals they have in excess (what the whole 85-90% thing is about), they stand against using animals for food, for consumer products, and for testing/experimentation. I agree with the basics of what they stand for, but most certainly not the extremity. I'd almost go so far as to label them a terrorist organization, by some of their methods.

blush, Animals eat each other. Though we humans are civilized, we are ourselves animals, designed to eat both meat and vegetable. I agree that we as a species should stop hunting endangered species, and I'm against animal cruelty, but to go completely vegan, while an acceptable personal choice, is not something that should be pushed on society as a whole. Animals kill each other. People kill each other. Both animals and people die of natural causes. Every living thing dies at some point, but more are born to take their place. Nobody lives forever; if we did, what would be the point of living?

I agree with you as well.

You're right, carnivorous animals kill each other in the wild. But they do not breed other animals in vast numbers then keep them in captivity for that express purpose. Your argument holds if your sole methods of acquiring food are killing it in the wild yourself, or scavenging already dead animals.

Killing it in the wild ourselves? One great thing about living in the 21st century is we don't have to do that. We don't have to get our hands dirty. We can get the meat we want, prepared the way we want, from a store, guaranteed by the government to be safe and clean to some pre-established level. That's part of what makes us a civilization, more advanced than the animals we eat, that we have such a system. I've had freshly killed meat, not very often, but I have had it. It doesn't taste nearly as good (to me). (For reference, it was a chicken.)

I'm pretty much a carnivore. I like a good salad every now and then, and I love soup... but most of what I eat is meat. I don't think there's anything cruel or unusual about that - at least on my part. I would like to prefer that the meat processing plants kill the animals humanely, but I'm honestly more concerned with the meat being safe and healthy.

There are some dishes I'm "against". Like that "foie gras" or whatever it is... I've never had it, but I've heard horror stories about its preparation - I have no interest to try it. In CA there was an Italian restaurant I liked, that made an awesome veal dish. The first time I had it, my mother let me get it, didn't tell me what veal was. I just knew it was a kind of beef, and not something "nasty" like the tongue, stomach, liver, etc. The next day she told me what it was. I ordered the dish one, maybe two more times after that. I ordered something with veal out here and it was nasty, so veal's off my list. (For those of you who don't know, veal is baby cows - they're kept in tight cages, I think force-fed, and killed at a young age for the meat. It's not a pleasant thing, but the meat has a distinct taste - good if done right, and it's really tender.) But cows, chickens, and pigs are not endangered species; eating meat from these animals is not something I would consider cruel.

I think anyone who sheds too many tears for livestock has seen one too many Disney movies. Animals are not four-legged furry people with hopes, dreams, a sense of humor, and top Hollywood voice actors. They do think and feel, but it's so much simpler than our own - for example fish have like a three second memory threshold. Their instincts are shaped by past experiences, but they don't sit around and remenisce about that horrible tank cleaning a month ago and fear the coming of the next one. While some animals (some more than others) care about their young, they don't have hopes that their young will be better than they were. Animals don't worry that their sons will run with the wrong crowd or that their daughters will get pregnant before they finish school. All of that does not justify animal cruelty. But it does make me feel a whole lot less guilty about eating a sausage and pepperoni pizza, a hamburger, or chicken jambalaya. In fact, I feel no more guilty about eating a good lasagna than I do about eating a vegetarian lasagna - they're different, of course, but there are some very good vegetarian (vegan is too much sacrifice) dishes out there, and I like them... but I feel no more guilty about eating something with meat than without.

No, not at all.

First let me say I don't agree with industrial-scale manufacture of meat (that's essentially what it is). McDonalds and KFC spring to mind there.

But to say that by eating meat you can't disagree with outright cruelty, I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. Humans are carnivores by design - the fact you probably have to take supplements in addition to your salad proves that. We are meat eaters, and to feed the number of people on this planet you have to farm animals to a certain extent. There is a massive difference between animal cruelty and the slaughter of farm animals for supply of food. You know there's a difference between cruelty and humane death.

I just don't get how you can 'disagree' with someone eating meat. If you don't want to eat meat then that's completely your choice, but I'm a carnivore. What's the problem?

If we could go back to the old ways of getting meat, I would have never stopped. Mass production is all too real and the NORM now. Blatant disregard for the animal's feelings, whether it's actually stunned well enough is all too common now. I won't get into the conditions they live in during their whole life before they are slaughtered or milk harvested or eggs taken, but only because I don't push my beliefs on others.

If I could go back and not have the knowledge I do have I would do it in a heartbeat. My mother however pushes meat on me and never lets up. Saying it's not fair to my kids that they don't eat meat.

The idea of PeTA is good. I also see and understand their need to be extreme, sometimes. In a meat eating society it's very difficult to get through to people. However I don't know how I feel about this specific information, and I am against them in other ways (such as people shouldn't OWN pets).

Rikki said,

Actually there are conflicting beliefs about this. Many believe that humans didn't eat meat until a few thousand years ago. Even those who believe the bible see that it didn't say to eat meat until after Noah and the great flood, when he saved all those animals.

I'm sorry, but people are not a meat eating society - people are a meat eating species, period.
It's rediculous to even consider the concept of each individual human being in a civilized society hunting for the meat their genetically hard wired systems require.
Humans are carnivores. Meat will be available by whatever means necessary for the perpetuation of the species. Deal with it.
No offense intended, but those that deny this medical fact are misinformed idealists at best, and really need a refresher course in A&P.
Sure, there's dietary supplements available (in a civilized society, anyway), but in the wild, vegans would simply starve to death from malnutrition due to self denial of essential amino acids and proteins necessary for their very survival.
IOW, they wouldn't last long at all.
Hopefully, these PETA bastards would be eliminated from the gene pool first - I think of it as evolution in action.

People have been omnivorous from the start.

Medical FACT in what way? Nobody knows for certain we can only speculate. We base our findings on the discovered skulls and remains of those we dig up, and date them back. We have only found them going so far back.

Further I often wondered about some things. Such as who ever had the bright notion on where to get milk, or eggs? Did someone say, "Hey, let's go try the breast milk from that animal" and all of a sudden society drank milk? Or worse who was the bright one who said, "hey let's go eat that egg coming out of that chicken's butt" lol

Those are just questions which I've always thought of, even as a meat eater. And for the record I do consume eggs.


And you know this how? When was the "start" also?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Archaeology, and everything to do with human Anatomy and Physiology - please read again:

Sorry to take your comments out of context - just returning the favour.

I take no supplements. Proteins (amino acids) can be found in many vegetables. Let's remember the medical world is still not perfect, even in medicine the world states beliefs.

Do I have more or less energy? More. Do I weigh less or more? Believe it or not more. Am I healthier or not? Hard to say, but I feel better, sleep better.

On taking your comments out of context, all I did was reference the comments I was replying to. Is that a bad thing?


Edit:
The following is based on a vegetarian (not vegan) diet, and of course it is probably biased. Then again I'd say any statements made on the subject are biased. It's pretty informative though.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/basic-nutrition.html

You already stated that you eat eggs - those alone are a sufficient source of essential amino acids, proteins, and carbohydrates to keep you alive - without them you'd be generally unhealthy, unnaturally pale, and prone to infection and viruses - in short, your immune system would be compromised - the end result is extinction.
I'm talking about "purists" that don't "pollute their bodies by lowering themselves to such levels" (yes, I've heard and seen the whole song and dance...).

I can understand where you're coming from, but you left a few things out that kind of don't agree with what you're saying.

1. Animals in factory farms can be, and are, treated just as badly as veal.
2. Choosing not to eat animals not only saves animal lives, but also is the largest step towards curing world hunger. It saves human lives as well. Animals eat a lot more food than they produce, and also create pollution in extreme quantities.

Yes but I get my aminos from so many other things too.

Personally I don't know if one can truely be a vegan. Somewhere down the line you might consume a piece of bread that was made with eggs or something. I'd love to be a vegan but I could never do it. I was surprised I remained a vegetarian for so long.

Oh, please...veal? Have you ever killed to eat? Have you ever clubbed an animal to death with the butt of your rifle because you didn't want to waste another round in its head because the first one didn't do the job, but your children were depending on the meat?
It's nice to be idealistic and live in cloud cuckoo land, but real life survival is hard, cold facts, and you do what it takes to feed your family.

Based on statements made about animals, their potential feelings etc:

I've seen many animals in pain, die, cry out, etc. I've worked at a no-kill animal shelter, a slaughterhouse, and from time to time I rehab orphaned wildlife.

Whether animals have dreams to succeed in the world, have aspirations in life? I don't know, but I know animals do dream.

I have a strong interest in psychology and sociology. Truth be told it was from studying many wild animals for years. From that I worked with children and babies and after some time noticed so many similarities with some animals and the kids, and how they acted.

The argument that animals aren't "human" so they don't count is just an excuse for eating meat, in my opinion. Sure I don't remember seeing a dog drive a car but hopefully you got my point.

That's what bugs me. That you think I need an excuse to eat meat. You are like many other vegetarians - trying to get us carnivorous humans to justify our diet to you.

Not at all, if you'd been paying attention in this thread I stated I don't push my belief on anyone. I have responded to statements which were biased however.

When I said it's a statement as an excuse, I didn't mean it literally. However you've taken it as such.

My children WILL eat, and they'll get what they need to survive!
If that's an excuse, then so be it.

I make the same statement. Minus the excuse part.

I'll accept that, but what happens when the crops fail?

Or when the animals die off?

I'll admit we have problems with meat and vegetables, whether it be mad cow, bird flu, pestisides or what.

There really is no definitive answer in the scheme of things.

As well as like I've said before, had I not found out specific things I'd still eat meat. And if there was never "mass production" same thing.

Being a vegetarian is also a very difficult thing to be in this society. Yes even now. How many times did I eat McDonald's fries before finding out about them being 'treated' with beef. How many times am I left hungry because I'm at an event that really doesn't have much for consumption other then meat?

Not to mention the heat my mother gives me all the time, and when I say something like, "Mom, you were the one who taught me to respect animals, and with what I've learned I cannot consume them. You would quit too." She replies with, "I'd rather stay ignorant and enjoy myself"

Sigh.

I'm not sure if I see a real comparison here - crop failures are most often due to circumstances beyond human control, mainly weather.
Extinction is rarely due to being hunted to death - humans have learned their lessons from that, and accordingly use proven animal husbandry practices to ensure survival of the food source species - the buffalo close call is only one example, and the one Americans learned their lesson from.
Entire species as a general rule are not hunted to extinction as often or as regularly as crops fail due to unexpected and/or cyclic weather conditions.

While human beings are certainly an omnivorous species there can be no doubting that those in the West eat too much meat. Outside the West it is the norm to eat 1 meat dish a week, that is about what your body is adapted to. I wonder how many of you actually eat that, or less. I know I don't.

World hunger has nothing to dow ith animal production. WE already have enough food, both animal and vegetable, to feed the entire planet. THe cputries without food are generally in that shape because of civil war, drought or government corruption. Whether or not we eat meat is irrelevant.
I have a degree in Wildlife Biology. I am quite versed in the balance of nature. Humans are naturally omnivores and function best with a well balanced intake of all foods. The best proof of this is to look at the diets of the worlds greatest athletes. They are almost exlusively omnivores. The protein requirement for a high level of physical performance requires a source richer than what vegetables can provide. You could not enough enough non-animal products to get the amino acids proteins and omega3 fatty acids you need in a day.
I know several vegans. They all look like they are about to drop dead. Vegetarians are generally far healthier than vegans and omnivores healthier yet. There is no question a diet too dependant on meat is also unhealthy. A pure carnivorous diet is as dangerous as a vegan one.
Some of PeTA's most untolerable stances are those on hunting and using animals for research. As a cancer survivor I know that without animal testing to find a cure for my form of cancer I would be dead.
As a biologist I also know that humans have an important role to play as predators. This is especially true in semi-rural areas. In Ontario the primary predators wolves and bears have been pushed from their habitat further and further north. Top level predators are especially sensitive to environmental changes.
Those lower on the food chain (white tail deer for example) actually thrive in semi-rural environs. The constant source of food from farmlands and grassy places like parks and golf courses ensures a low mortality rate. However this also increases populations. First the effect is slow, but eventually the growth rate become exponential. Finally deer are forced in to more urban areas to find food. Eventually food becomes scarce, contact with other deer groups more frequent and starvation, disease and parasitic infection become rampant. The numbers may be decimated or fall off back to a sustainable level, however the remaining population is nearly always sickly and prone to winter kill.
By having human predators remove some of the herd each year through hunting, a sustainable population can be maintained. This prevents the overgrazing which also affects other grazing animals. It also prevents the needless suffering from starvation, CWD or similarly slow deaths.

Greater supply = lower costs = more people donating more food to poorer countries. Are you going to deny that? Not to mention, meat costs a lot more than vegetable products.

Damn!

First off, we're not living three thousand years ago. Who cares how they ate? They didn't have genetically enhanced vegetables and FDA (US only) approved meat. We're living in the now.

Second, nobody here's complaining about chocolate. Vegetables are better, meat's better - pah! It's all better than chocolate and caramel, wouldn't you all agree? (Yet I love caramel, so what?)

Third, how do vegans and vegetarians get off telling the rest of us not to eat meat or how to eat meat? You may hear omnivores saying that meat has protiens you need, but we never tell you that eating vegetables is wrong. Let me make another point that I don't think has been made. Vegetables are living things, too. They may not walk around, they may not make noise, but they are living organisms, too. But you never hear anyone complaining about plant cruelty, except groups like Earth First which protest logging, but that's different. Oh my god, you're so cruel to your tomatoes, slicing and dicing them so! Why don't you consider their feelings? Oh, they don't feel. So that makes it alright. Humans are more advanced than animals... if that's not an excuse, it's no excuse to take it a step further and saying plants don't feel. They're alive and by eating them, you end their life before their natural death.

So what now? Nobody eats? How does that help anyone?

I think the biggest problem vegans/vegetarians have in understanding things is that nothing currently eats humans - we are at the top of the food chain. If we weren't, it would all be in perspective.

Oh, and I've been told by a couple people actually, that the human digestive system is flawed. Apparently we don't digest meat enough to get the full nutrition from it, and we digest vegetation too much, so we lose there as well. Herbivores have shorter digestive tracts; carnivores, longer. Because we're in the middle, we don't get the best of either, so we need both to balance it out. Or supplements. That's how I understand it. But I do not eat for health, I eat what I crave. I'm kind of primal that way. I'm not the healthiest person up on here, and maybe that's why, but I accept my condition. And I highly doubt cutting out meat would help me - I'd be missing something important.

As much as I hate to admit it, Nathan you have some good points.

Also let me clarify though I have at no time told anyone what they should eat. I've merely defended my personal choice.

Eitherway or the other I don't care. I like meat, I enjoy meat, I shall continue to eat meat.

Just as a question of interest, to those that would eat meat if it had to be caught like when humans were cavemen...

Firstly, I'm not trying to pretend that slaughter is a loving thing to do.

But, don't you think the method we use now in free-range farming where animals are able to live their life freely, on the whole, then slaughtered quickly, is a lot more humane than the 'caveman' method of stalking and chasing an animal with a spear, catching it and it dying a slow death from bleeding?

As I've said before, I don't knowingly buy or eat industrial meat. When I learnt of McDonalds methods, I stopped eating there completely. I haven't eaten at KFC for many years for the same reason. I only buy and eat British meat where there's some level of expectation of standard (though that's not fool-proof, I know). Don't you think using modern methods to slaughter free-range animals is kinder than the methods we used to use?

You would have a point except that there really isn't much "free range" and the conditions are also horrible at many of those places as well. Good point though except, if I may instead of cavemen look at the American Indians. I don't know about cavemen but the Indians had to prove themselves good hunters. Which meant good aim, quick kills and not being killed. Then there is the fact that they respected the animals and gave thanks to their God after killing the animal, usually also asking for forgiveness. Not that it pertains in this discussion but I find it interesting, given the compassion.

Like I said I was raised on meat, and had I not learned the truth about slaughter I would have remained on it. I cook a MEAN steak!!!!!!! People have begged me to make them one recalling back when I ate meat.

You might think most or all the meat you eat isn't industrial meat, but I'm willing to bet that up to 99% of it is, even in Britian.

The choice is there if you want it though. I only ever buy organic meat. I buy organic because it's free range, void of chemicals, and the land on which the animals graze has been chemical free for at least 5 years. And it tastes a helluva lot better because of it.

Actually, vegetables don't feel pain.

Assuming there is some perfect farm out there, then yes, that is kinder to the animal. However, it is still cruelty to nature and to our planet, as the mass production of animals creates incredible pollution. (Manure being the worst) There is also the fact that free range farms require incredible amounts of space for production; often at the expense of our forests and wildlife.

Vegetarianism means there would be more food available worldwide for people, less pollution, less environmental destruction, and less suffering of animals.

...and a planet full of unhealthy people eating an unbalanced diet.

Vegetarians in the west can take supplements to get the stuff they miss from meat (and dairy for vegans). What's your solution for people in the 3rd world where you can't just get supplements? Their livestock keep them alive from year to year. What happens when there's a drought and you can't just grow some vegetables? What's your answer?


You basic point is that over-population is harming the planet. That, at least, I agree with.

Vegetarians being unhealthy is a common stereotype, but it's really not the case. The people who become unhealthy for becoming a vegetarian are doing it wrong. The body still needs all the same nutrients, and not any single food will provide you with that. However, it is easy to get everything you need for a healthy diet by eating no meat at all. In fact, many diseases have been found to be directly related to meat, and those who don't eat meat, have been found to be a lot less prone to those diseases.

If you're vegan, then there is one supplement you need to take.

I'm not saying the world will all turn vegetarian in a day, because it won't. However, if the richer countries start first, that allows more food aid to be given to starving countries. I would consider that a good start.


The animals suffer from drought just as much as the crops do.

I ain't ever gonna give up meat, neither is my girlfriend, and neither are none of my housemates or family (except Ish who is veggie for religious reasons... and I know she'd eat meat if her religion didn't forbid it!)

And no reasons or excuses you can ever giving for doing so will change my mind.

You were told wrong; it is the opposite. Herbivores have the longer digestive tracts. And I'd think again about reducing or eliminating meat from your diet not having benefits. You would be at a significantly reduced risk of heart disease, kidney disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and many types of cancers, especially colon.

As for supplements, a healthy vegetarian does not need any. Even a healthy vegan does not need any if he is careful; the only vitamin that is generally missing from a vegan diet is B12 and there are a few sources of that (nutritional yeast and sea vegetables are the main ones).

In addition, plenty of indigenous cultures thrived just fine eating the vegetation native to their habitat, though I think that's in part due to how people in different areas of the world evolved.

Anyway, no I don't think that veganism should be pushed on anybody, but I do think it should be encouraged, and that people should not believe silly myths about it. But I do think that people SHOULD realize that they eat TOO MUCH. The attitude you need meat at every meal, or even every day, is wrong. The idea that one serving of meat is 12 ounces is wrong.

Nobody is perfect obviously, but some things are better than others. For example - with my lifestyle, I need the equivalent of five hectares (12.5 acres, I think) to support me. If everybody in the world had the same lifestyle, we'd need 2.5 earths. That's a pretty sad state. The average American requires nine hectares though. Still, I think that the best SINGLE thing a person can do for the environment, and his own health is to stop eating meat, or at least reduce it to a reasonable level and not use factory-farmed products.

If taking a large step towards ending world hunger isn't enough for you to make sacrifices to your diet, then nothing ever will be. I don't see the point in you stating this.

I don't see how me personally stopping to eat meat will end world hunger.

Are you saying you don't know why it does, or are you saying "one person won't make a difference"?

The Latter

That's just like my mother always telling me, "You're not saving any animal" when she tries to push me into eating meat.
One person, leads to more.

How so is that logic applied? My housemate doesn't eat meat, none of us have stopped eating meat because of that, we just don't shove it in her face.

You will never ever stop enough people eating meat for it to make a different. It's just physically impossible, and then therefore a non arguement.

The point is that I'm not consuming it. My mother's point is that I *should* eat it because myself being one person doesn't help the animals in any way.

And while there are some who push vegetarianism I've known about 4 people I've talked to (by their own interest) who reduced their meat intake severely. So my point is it spreads.

I sure would like to think enough people who eat meat would take a STAND though, since my belief is that people do care about how animals are treated. A couple people have stated they are making the difference in this thread by getting organic, free roam meat. Which is not always without problems but a huge step towards making a difference. So I don't see it as.. impossible.