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Brandon C
Click here to watch the new Osama bin Laden Video in its entirety released on Sept 7, 2007.

Article link: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/07/binladen.tape/index.html

QUOTE
Official: Voice on video belongs to bin Laden

* Story Highlights
* NEW: Bush says tape is a reminder that Iraq is part of the war against extremists
* Initial analysis confirms voice is that of al Qaeda leader, official says
* Bin Laden tape questions power of Democratic majority
* The anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks is Tuesday

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Early analysis indicates the voice on a recently released videotape is that of Osama bin Laden, a U.S. official said Friday, as President Bush called the tape "a reminder of the dangerous world in which we live."

A transcript of the video, obtained by CNN, shows it contains no overt threats toward the United States.

Some date references, including a mention of Democrats gaining the majority in Congress, may indicate the tape is new.

In the tape, bin Laden calls the Iraq war "unjust" and blames it -- and a host of the world's other ills -- on capitalism.VideoWatch a segment of the tape »

"Iraq and Afghanistan and their tragedies; and the reeling of many of you under the burden of interest-related debts, insane taxes and real estate mortgages; global warming and its woes; and the abject poverty and tragic hunger in Africa; all of this is but one side of the grim face of this global system," he said.

Bin Laden also urges Americans to "embrace Islam" as a way to end the war in Iraq, according to the transcript.

President Bush, in Australia for the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit, said it was "interesting" that bin Laden mentioned Iraq in the tape.

"If al Qaeda bothers to mention Iraq, it is because they want to achieve their objectives in Iraq, which is to drive us out and to develop a safe haven," Bush said.

"And the reason they want a safe haven is to launch attacks against America or any other ally. And therefore, it is important that we show resolve and determination to protect ourselves, to deny al Qaeda safe haven and to support young democracies, which will be a major defeat to their ambitions."

The transcript also shows bin Laden blaming global warming on large corporations.

"The life of all mankind is in danger because of the global warming resulting to a large degree from the emissions of the factories the major corporations," it says.

"And despite this brazen attack on the people [referring to global warming], the leaders of the West -- especially Bush, Blair, Sarkozy and Brown -- still talk about freedom and human rights with a flagrant disregard for the intellects of humans?"

The reference to French President Nicolas Sarkozy and new British Prime Minister Gordon Brown suggests that the tape was recorded this summer.

U.S. officials said its appearance -- just days before the sixth anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks planned and carried out by al Qaeda -- shows that the group remains intent on targeting the United States.

"We continue to see a very determined enemy who wants to plot, plan and kill Americans and act against American interests," White House homeland security adviser Fran Townsend told CNN.

"But I'd encourage Americans to keep in mind whenever we see these sorts of statements, they're propaganda. And they're the enemy's propaganda. They're meant to manipulate the American people and to frighten them," she said.

Another official described the tape, which is about 30 minutes long, as "ranting and raving."

Earlier Friday, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said it was not unusual for al Qaeda to release tapes near the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Chertoff said no special alert was in the works.

He said only that the United States had scored "a win for the good guys" with recent arrests of terror suspects in Germany and Denmark, adding that the suspects had posed no direct threat to the United States.

Officials had no "credible information" about any imminent threat to the United States, Russ Knocke, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, said Thursday.

But he reiterated the department's stance that "we are in a period of increased risk."

"The National Intelligence Estimate cited increases in activity overseas, and we're mindful of the recent arrests in Europe," he said. "There has also been an uptick in propaganda tapes and messages coming from al Qaeda and affiliated networks over the past year."

Bin Laden's last video appearance came days before the 2004 presidential vote and was widely credited with giving a boost to President Bush's re-election campaign.

In that tape, bin Laden said he decided in 1982 to attack the twin towers of the World Trade Center after the invasion of Lebanon by Israel, which he claimed was backed by the U.S. Navy.

Although the United States launched the war in Afghanistan to find bin Laden and to deny al Qaeda a haven with the Taliban, which then controlled the country, he has eluded capture.

Officials have said bin Laden may be hiding in the mountainous tribal areas of Afghanistan or Pakistan. But a military official recently said there has been no good lead on his location since about 2005.

CNN's Pam Benson and Kelli Arena contributed to this report.

Copyright 2007 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.


Here is another CNN article published today regarding Osama bin Laden:

Article link: http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/09/bin...tape/index.html

QUOTE
Bin Laden is 'virtually impotent,' national security adviser says

* Story Highlights
* Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appears in new videotape
* National security adviser: No credible information about imminent attack
* Adviser Frances Townsend calls bin Laden tape "propaganda"
* In the tape, bin Laden encourages Americans to "embrace Islam"

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Osama bin Laden may be grabbing headlines with a new videotape but he is "virtually impotent," said President Bush's national security adviser.

"This is a man on the run in a cave who is virtually impotent other than his ability to get these messages out," Frances Townsend said Sunday on CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer."

She called the tape, which surfaced last week, "propaganda."

The U.S. is taking the tape "very seriously" and is piecing through it for clues, but the al Qaeda leader is not known to have ever used a tape "to trigger any operational activity," said Townsend.

Townsend said the U.S. has "no specific or credible information right now about an imminent attack."

She added the "ongoing plots around the world" are concerning.

"And we continue to make sure that the information is being shared not only with our agencies overseas, but our investigative agencies here at home like the FBI and local police departments."

Townsend was referring to the arrests in Germany last week of suspects planning an alleged terror plot aimed at U.S. military installations and other Western targets. Also last week in Denmark, authorities arrested eight people who were planning attacks.

In the tape, which appears recently made, bin Laden urges Americans to "embrace Islam" as a way to end the war in Iraq.

It contains no overt threats toward the U.S.

However, bin Laden does talk about his "side" continuing "to escalate the killing and fighting against you. This is our duty and our brothers are carrying it out, and I ask God to grant them resolve and victory."

John McLaughlin, the former acting head of the CIA, and now a CNN consultant, said bin Laden achieved at least two things in the tape.

"He gets to reach out to followers who, according to jihadist Web sites, have been wondering where is their leader," McLaughlin said. "And he also gets to rail against the Iraq war, which is his strongest propaganda point."

Townsend said analysts are taking care to examine all aspects of the tape.

"We are looking for things like indications about his health, indications about his whereabouts, the contents of the message. Are there any hidden meanings or messages to it? That technical analysis is ongoing," she said.

Asked why the United States has failed to capture or kill bin Laden six years after the 9/11 attacks, Townsend brought up Eric Robert Rudolph, who was convicted of several bombing attacks in the U.S., including the 1996 Summer Olympics bombing in Atlanta, Georgia.

"He was in the foothills in the Carolinas here in the United States, and it took us five years to find him," she said of Rudolph.

Blitzer responded, "But you weren't devoting the resources to finding Eric Rudolph that you're devoting to finding Osama bin Laden."

"No," Townsend replied. "But you have the counterterrorism resources that are devoted to not only finding bin Laden, but they're also devoted to preventing the next attack, to following leads, both in this country and around the world.

Democrats charged the videotape shows Bush took his eye off al Qaeda by invading Iraq.

"Every time I see that fugitive terrorist on television taunting America, I think of how wrong this president was in turning away from going after that murderer who murdered our citizens, and moving into Iraq and not having any way of getting us out," Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-California, said Sunday. Watch Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid urge Bush to bring bin Laden to justiceVideo

Townsend said "capturing and killing bin Laden is the No. 1 priority, but it's not our only priority."

"We also have to be mindful of current ongoing threats against this country," said Townsend.
Chris T
Gee the War on Terror sure is going well innit. I remember when September 11th happened and a couple of days later Bush stood on ground zero and said "We're gonna get the people that did this". That worked out well.
Luke
I read the first quoted article, and haven't read the others yet... But what Bin Ladin is saying isn't far from what Michael More, and other people like him, are saying.

What's freaky too is when I read the quotes from Bush in that article it was almost like hearing him say it. The same stuff.... And not a surprise with elections coming soon.
Wombat
Doesn't he have his own YouTube channel yet?
Rikki
I haven't watched the video yet but according to something I read yesterday, all the references to current events are spoken when the video has frozen. If that's right, that's a bit fishy, isn't it? It would explain how he's suddenly managed to get healthy again.
Jaime
QUOTE(Wombat @ Sep 10 2007, 09:55 AM) *
Doesn't he have his own YouTube channel yet?

I wonder what would happend if someone created a YouTube channel purporting to be Bin Laden? FBI/CSA at your doorstep? laughing.gif
Adam Kinder
They're right on one account, it is propaganda, it's propaganda from Bush and the his cronies to keep us all terrified of a perpetual enemy.
I call bullfaeces, just as the article states, the last tape was released right before the 2004 elections. Gee what a coincidence.

I actually predicted on my blog in early 2003 that we would either A) suddenly capture Bin Laden days before the 2004 election, or B ) Hear from him about some horrid attack, helping put Bush back in charge.

I'll go ahead and make a prediction here that we will invade Iran in April of 2008, based on a flimsy staged attack in Iraq, and another Bin Laden tape will come up in August of 2008. The GOP will use it to show that we are hitting Osama where it hurts him the most, in Iran & Iraq, and that by electing a democrat into office, we'd be inviting the enemy on our doorstep.

Osama is the best boogeyman that the GOP could ever ask for.
idav
QUOTE(Rikki @ Sep 10 2007, 05:58 AM) *
I haven't watched the video yet but according to something I read yesterday, all the references to current events are spoken when the video has frozen. If that's right, that's a bit fishy, isn't it? It would explain how he's suddenly managed to get healthy again.

Everything I've heard about this video indicates that it's fake. And not a very good fake either. From the frozen video to the fake beard... Bin Laden is like Paris Hilton, if we ignore them they might go away...

QUOTE(Adam Kinder @ Sep 10 2007, 09:59 AM) *
They're right on one account, it is propaganda, it's propaganda from Bush and the his cronies to keep us all terrified of a perpetual enemy.
I call bullfaeces, just as the article states, the last tape was released right before the 2004 elections. Gee what a coincidence.

I actually predicted on my blog in early 2003 that we would either A) suddenly capture Bin Laden days before the 2004 election, or B ) Hear from him about some horrid attack, helping put Bush back in charge.

I'll go ahead and make a prediction here that we will invade Iran in April of 2008, based on a flimsy staged attack in Iraq, and another Bin Laden tape will come up in August of 2008. The GOP will use it to show that we are hitting Osama where it hurts him the most, in Iran & Iraq, and that by electing a democrat into office, we'd be inviting the enemy on our doorstep.

Osama is the best boogeyman that the GOP could ever ask for.

While I don't buy into the conspiracy side of things as much as you seem to, I totally, 100$...sorry, 100% agree with your sentiment. Whether Bush is actually creating these videos or not, this is about the best political tool they could ever hope for.
Adam Kinder
I don't necessarily believe that Bush himself, or even the White House is creating the videos, but I wouldn't put it past them to have a whole catalog of Bin Laden tapes from years back, and make clever edits here and there when necessary.

Don't you think it's counter-productive on Bin Laden's part to release tapes that embolden the current administration, especially when he is against the attacks in Iraq/Afghanistan? If he is really wanting the US to hit the road so they can set up camp in Iraq especially, don't you think he would release a tape declaring that he is terrified of the democratic congress and their timetables, or that the Iraq government is so hardened that they can't move into Iraq?

Then, the US says, alright, we took him down, let's pull out the troops and move on, he can't touch Iraq. Osama & Co. move right in.

Or I guess it's possible that we're crediting him with too much military intelligence. But then again, he did orchestrate the Sept 11th attacks on one of the world's top super powers.
idav
QUOTE(Adam Kinder @ Sep 10 2007, 11:10 AM) *
Or I guess it's possible that we're crediting him with too much military intelligence. But then again, he did orchestrate the Sept 11th attacks on one of the world's top super powers.

What do you mean by military intelligence? He can make most decisions based on CNN or Fox News. He's accurately aware of the political climate in our country because of our "god" given right to freedom of speech and our "god" given inability to know when to use it.

Anyways, I'm no video analyst, but that beard is most certainly fake. First of all it's shorter than normal, which is possibly explainable, I know men are required to grow beards in his culture, but I'm not sure about the stigma associated with trimming them. Second of all he seems to have lost all his gray hair, and I must say, you'll have a pretty hard time convincing me that one of our B-52s accidentally dropped a Just For Men shipment instead of thousands of pounds of ordinance.
Alεx
Saw this on BBC, its nothing new, its just like the other videos really, though he has died his beard...
whitetigergrowl
So...who here has done their history work?

There always has to be some sort of conspiracy over everything. Otherwise it just wouldn't appeal to everyones own agenda. Those that wish to do harm to this country LOVE conspiracy theorists and the arm chair conspiracy theorists don't even realize it. Or are too ignorant to want to believe it. Why do they love them? Simple, it diverts a lot of attention away from those that DID cause the problem. Intentional or not.

For a moment if you will.

Say that I go out there with a couple of friends and blow up another American target. For example the Mall of America in Minnesota. Thousands die. Keep in mind the Mpls./St. Paul International Airport is extremely close to the mall. Maybe we crashed a plane into it, maybe it was another set up of explosives. Whatever the case, the place goes up on flames.

Pretty simple. Cut and dry. We accomplished what we wanted to do. But in the process one of the hotels near it has an explosion that was set in place because of what happened at the MOA. Gas related, whatever. A chain reaction of events occurs. All the while, known or not, FEMA was in town for a meeting and had arrived in town the day before.

So now you have hundreds...thousands of eyewitnesses all saying different things because of where they were at and what they were doing at the time. Some experts in their fields, some not. You also now have millions of armchair experts sitting at home watching this occur on TV and/or the internet. All forming their conclusions off of what the media is playing and the bits and pieces of info coming from the scene. What's worse, America has never had to deal with such a massive event on it's home turf before. Confusion and varied information ensues.

So now you have those that hate the govt., for any number of reasons that right away start blaming the govt. because things just seem fishy. It's gotta be the govt!

Then you have those that don't want to believe things could have happened the way they did. That it's all a 'Wag the Dog' scenario. It's a setup by the govt to give us a reason to go to war. Or for any other number of reasons.

Because of the unexpected chain of events, things play out better than was hoped.

All the while...we accomplished our own mission with no avert ideals, missions, or goals. But now you have the conspiracy theorists muddying the water. Confusing and in some cases purposely giving out misinformation to help push their own ideals. As well, those in my group may be helping fuel that muddiness by feeding upon anti-govt. hatred or fears and purposely giving out misinformation. As well as picking apart any possible discrepancies to further fuel that fire and purposely ignore other facts in order to try and spread their ideology.

And sometimes people like making more of something than there actually is. Even if more facts point to it just being me and my friends.

It's amazing how an event I did has now become an international incident. Sad and pathetic and a testament to some peoples paranoia of things.
-------------------------

So really...what makes the conspiracy theorists, who are spreading their own ideals and beliefs any better than those that aren't conspiracy theorists. Just because you don't believe in the status quo doesn't mean you are right either. I consider what many conspiracy theorists say no different than any propaganda that the govt or terrorists or anyone else says. It's all ideology and in some cases religion based ideals being used as a catalyst by an actual (and in many cases benign) event. Sadly events like 9/11 are fuel for their fire.

What's worse is that many if not most of the conspiracy theorists were not near the event. Using the same media many claim as lying, in order to gain evidence of their conspiracies. They claim the media is right, left, or govt. run and most everything they say is lies. Yet they use that same media to try and add 'proof' to their conspiracy. Doesn't that make it a bit hypocritical and a bit self serving? To make those claims, but then to say, "Oh, well on this they weren't lying.". etc etc.

Pathetic. Conspiracy theorists in my opinion rank right up there with the very govt. many of them despise. Propaganda self serving leeches of society.

I don't believe everything I'm told. But I also don't try and ignore known facts just because they don't gel with 'my facts'.
Adam Kinder
QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 10 2007, 11:35 AM) *
I must say, you'll have a pretty hard time convincing me that one of our B-52s accidentally dropped a Just For Men shipment instead of thousands of pounds of ordinance.


heh laughing.gif
I don't know, they did lose track of those nukes last week and flew them over NC or something.

I think the beard shows that the video is much older than the last video released, where his beard was streaked with grey. I guess it is possible that he just dyed it somehow, but it is possible for a man's beard to grey out in a short number of years.
idav
@ Whitetigergrowl, Amen brother.
Adam Kinder
QUOTE(whitetigergrowl @ Sep 10 2007, 11:53 AM) *
...
Pathetic. Conspiracy theorists in my opinion rank right up there with the very govt. many of them despise. Propaganda self serving leeches of society.

I don't believe everything I'm told. But I also don't try and ignore known facts just because they don't gel with 'my facts'.


I don't think you were directing that at me, but just so we're clear, I'm not in with the conspiracy theorists, especially not the 9/11 'Truthers'. There is just no way in hell that the 9/11 attacks could be a total inside job. It would be far too huge, and you would not only have to pay off a substantial amount of people, but the logistics of pulling off something like that and not leaving any outside witnesses to your setup is impossible.

What I do think is that the current administration is milking the event, possibly manipulating some of these tapes/evidence and using the fear created by it as a political tool. Would the Democrats do the same? Of course they would, both parties are just different sides of the same grubby coin.
whitetigergrowl
QUOTE(Adam Kinder @ Sep 10 2007, 10:07 AM) *
I don't think you were directing that at me, but just so we're clear, I'm not in with the conspiracy theorists, especially not the 9/11 'Truthers'. There is just no way in hell that the 9/11 attacks could be a total inside job. It would be far too huge, and you would not only have to pay off a substantial amount of people, but the logistics of pulling off something like that and not leaving any outside witnesses to your setup is impossible.

What I do think is that the current administration is milking the event, possibly manipulating some of these tapes/evidence and using the fear created by it as a political tool. Would the Democrats do the same? Of course they would, both parties are just different sides of the same grubby coin.


Our govt milking the event? Nooooo. *sarcasm*

But it's not just the govt.

It's the conspiracy theorists using it to further their own agendas. Be it anti-govt. or whatever. As well as any man, woman, or child that wants to make a quick buck off it.

Welcome to capitalism at its finest.

Too many of the 9/11 conspiracies aren't even realistic and totally try to dismiss people that saw the events as tools of the govt and other stupid and unrealistic crap like that. I'm pretty sure most of us don't have microchips implanted in our heads with the govt telling us what to believe. Yet those same people coming up with the theories were nowhere near the events (like people in Europe O_o) and are only going by what others are saying on TV, in print, and online. Or by a person who told a person who told a person scenarios. That would be like one of you being at an event that happens, and I try convincing others that even though I was half a country or world away and not there, that I know more about what happened than you do. WTF ever happened to being realistic?! blink.gif

I think I hate people more than I hate our govt.. People claiming our govt is being stupid or whatever really need to take a close, hard look at themselves before they speak. getlost.gif
Jason H
You forget.. Bush is the decider.

Sadly, he's probably an equal to Dan Quayle.. God love him.. His heart's in the right place, but he's just a dumb ass.

He's probably gone too far.. Clinton didn't go far enough when the Cole and embassies were bombed..

But.. Where's the delicate balance? It's hard to fault Clinton AT THE TIME for only launching missiles.. Although, had he stepped it up, 9/11 could have been prevented.. But, hindsight is 20/20.. Someone thinking ahead and securing and reinforcing cockpit doors could have likely prevented it as well.

Of course, now.. Who knows what Bush has possibly prevented? Perhaps in 20 years Uday and Qusai would have developed a tactical nuke that would have been launched against Isreal dragging the whole world into an apopolyptic WWIII. No way of knowing.. Of course, there was no way of knowing when Clinton launched the missiles that 9/11 was on the way.

And if Annie Oakley hadn't been such a good shot, WWI never would have happened... (Points to whoever knows what that references.. Besides my uncanny and totally worthless knowledge of obscure and trivial historical tidbits)

The conspiracy nutjobs... Some of them just need to be put in a room full of 9/11 families and have the ever loving snot beaten out of them.

It's astounding to think that a government who can't keep track of nuclear missiles could ever come up with a conspiracy such as this in six-months time. Or that the amazing turn of events where McCain would implode and lose the nomination to Bush, then Bush would win the election.. That all those cards fell right into line(Assuming this was a 'long term' conspiracy).. oh.. But that's part of the conspiracy as well. Not only are all the 'government officials' involved, but also all the voters in the various primaries and general elections so that this whole grand plan could play out. Not to mention that they then had to plan the London subway bombings to keep up appearances, as well as the Spain terror attacks..

There's actually people who thing the towers were controlled demolitions. Why? Because if you slow the collapse down, you can see dust flying out lower floor windows.. Proof of an explosion.. Tell you what.. let me drop a million pounds of steel and concrete on your head and see if anything pops out of your lower floors.

I can HALFWAY understand some of the Kennedy conspiracies.. Because there were a large number of odd questions there that took a long time to be explained.. Such as the 'magic bullet'.. Until you realize that Connelly was sitting several inches LOWER in the car than Kennedy because the back seat was higher... It IS impossible for a bullet to do what that one did.. Once you take the height difference into account, the physics become obvious. But noone mentioned that for 30 damn years. Everyone assumed the back seat was level with the front..

Crop circles were done by two guys with boards on string... Alien Autopsy's original cameraman was a homeless guy hired off the streets of LA.


Chris T
Personally I've always suspected that Bin Laden prefers the Republicans in power. al Qaeda's propaganda line is that America hates Islam, thats a lot easier to promote with a Republican foreign policy.... al Qaeda is happy to attack America with either party in power, but it may find it easier to get people to join up with a Republican President.
idav
QUOTE(Jason H @ Sep 10 2007, 03:25 PM) *
And if Annie Oakley hadn't been such a good shot, WWI never would have happened... (Points to whoever knows what that references.. Besides my uncanny and totally worthless knowledge of obscure and trivial historical tidbits)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that maybe Gavrilo Princip idolized and was inspired by Annie Oakley?
Jason H
QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 10 2007, 06:21 PM) *
I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that maybe Gavrilo Princip idolized and was inspired by Annie Oakley?


Nope.. Although you're on the right track.

One of her feats of shooting prowess was to shoot the ash off a cigarette from 20 yards... while someone was holding the cigarette in their mouth. When Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show went on a tour of Europe, the Archduke Ferdinand insisted that she perform the feat with him holding the cigarette in his mouth.

Had she shot and killed him, he never would have been assassinated in Sarajevo BY Gavrilo Princip Thus, in theory, preventing WWI.
idav
Oh, thats interesting. If only she was as bad a shot as every other woman. tongue.gif
Alεx
After looking closely at the 04 and 07 videos, is it even the same guy >.> It could be one of those people just pretending to be him? Is there any proof its 100% him?
idav
I've pretty much made up my mind that Osama died years ago.

I really wouldn't put it past our government to produce/encourage/influence films like these in order to keep our populous' fears at code Red. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone that voted for George Bush in 04...:-(
whitetigergrowl
QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 11 2007, 11:17 AM) *
I've pretty much made up my mind that Osama died years ago.

I really wouldn't put it past our government to produce/encourage/influence films like these in order to keep our populous' fears at code Red. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone that voted for George Bush in 04...:-(


They can't even get the Iraq war right, (let alone any of his speeches) and you think they could get something like that right without being obvious? Keep dreaming. Time to break out those tinfoil hats.
idav
Your counter point has hold no weight. It's in their interests to keep this war raging on. If everything was fixed over there tomorrow then there is no more money to be made.

Anyways, please don't label me a conspiracy theorist. I'm not saying thats how it is, I'm just saying if the facts came out that, that is indeed was is going on my jaw wouldn't drop.

*edit* Oh, and to address your argument directly, that's the entire point I'm making. To me it's fairly obvious that the man in that video is NOT Osama (Usama) Bin Laden. It's "official" (whatever that means) that the voice does belong to Osama, but that man looks nothing like the man that we've seen in so many other pictures and videos.

*edit #2* Ok, I still feel like you're going to think I'm a nutjob. To put it in more a clearer perspective. If information came out to reveal that this administration has been using propaganda tools like these videos for their own self promotion my reaction wouldn't be, "Oh deary me, how could they do this to us." it would be, "Well that f#####g figures. /sigh "
whitetigergrowl
How can you confirm beyond personal speculation, that the info (or the relevant parts of it) coming out isn't as it is? That what we are seeing isn't what everyone, including those in govt. are seeing too.

It seems to me you are trying to make more of something that may not be. Trying to find reasons to believe otherwise. Case in point:

QUOTE
I'm just saying if the facts came out that, that is indeed was is going on my jaw wouldn't drop.


The facts? Your facts, or the facts as they are, or the facts you hope they would be? The only one that will ever know the facts are those directly involved. All you or I or anyone else can do is speculate and draw up our own conclusions. No matter how wrong or flawed or correct they could be.

I just love though when people say they hate the media because all it does it further right, left, or other political agendas and are just full of lies. Yet they try using it as a tool to further their own beliefs and as 'fact finding tools'. Kinda hypocritical don't you think?

QUOTE
It's in their interests to keep this war raging on. If everything was fixed over there tomorrow then there is no more money to be made.


And somehow the terrorists don't have their own interests? Funny how on the day of 9/11 you have forgotten what their reasons and interests were for it even happening. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened because their own goals would have been accomplished.

QUOTE
To me it's fairly obvious that the man in that video is NOT Osama (Usama) Bin Laden.


Its been 3 years since we last saw a video of him. People change. I have 2 pics of me from only about the same time (3 yrs) apart, and when I show people them and tell them its me, they don't believe it. Even though both pics ARE of me. So I wouldn't say its 'fairly obvious' it's not him. As it very well can be him.

Leone Club
Am also convinced that UBL is dead. Think about the cave men in the Geico ad...it is possible that they have used the same costume techniques to create another UBL. These are very smart folks.
whitetigergrowl
QUOTE((OO) @ Sep 11 2007, 03:40 PM) *
Am also convinced that UBL is dead. Think about the cave men in the Geico ad...it is possible that they have used the same costume techniques to create another UBL. These are very smart folks.


I'm convinced aliens exist. But can anyone actually prove it? Nor does it mean they actually do.

Even if a reliable, credible source says, "OSB is alive and well.", some people will still not believe it and try to convince themselves otherwise. Even if the person making such claims talked to him 15 minutes before the announcement was made.
whitetigergrowl
QUOTE((OO) @ Sep 11 2007, 03:40 PM) *
Am also convinced that UBL is dead. Think about the cave men in the Geico ad...it is possible that they have used the same costume techniques to create another UBL. These are very smart folks.


I'm convinced aliens exist. But can anyone actually prove it? Nor does it mean they actually do.

Even if a reliable, credible source says, "OSB is alive and well.", some people will still not believe it and try to convince themselves otherwise. Even if the person making such claims talked to him 15 minutes before the announcement was made.
Atlantis Services
I do not like Osama Bin Laden and I do not support his acts of hate, fear, or threats. But when he isn't requesting or acting for such, he sounds much like you or I. I find that odd in some sense.

That some of the things he can say can be agreeable, while so many of the other things he continues to say, do, or support sicken me without end.

QUOTE
"Iraq and Afghanistan and their tragedies; and the reeling of many of you under the burden of interest-related debts, insane taxes and real estate mortgages; global warming and its woes; and the abject poverty and tragic hunger in Africa; all of this is but one side of the grim face of this global system,"


QUOTE
"The life of all mankind is in danger because of the global warming resulting to a large degree from the emissions of the factories the major corporations,"

"And despite this brazen attack on the people [referring to global warming], the leaders of the West -- especially Bush, Blair, Sarkozy and Brown -- still talk about freedom and human rights with a flagrant disregard for the intellects of humans?"


Oh well. I'll still be happy once he's caught.
idav
@whitetigergrowl: Maybe I'm just in a pissy mood this morning but your annoyingly defeatist attitude has gone from conversational to argumentative.

Facts? Who's facts? Your facts? Their facts? What is a fact? You must be some super human omnipotent regulator of truth. Please allow me to build shrines and temples in your name kind sir. Of course "facts" can mean a great deal of things, with your line of thinking though, they can never mean anything. You completely break down any sort of interactive intellectual discussion by disarming anything someone says with the almighty rule of, "Oh YEAH?! Says who?!"

Thanks for babysitting my psyche for a bit, but I feel well enough to have a discussion on my own now.

QUOTE(whitetigergrowl @ Sep 11 2007, 04:08 PM) *
And somehow the terrorists don't have their own interests? Funny how on the day of 9/11 you have forgotten what their reasons and interests were for it even happening. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened because their own goals would have been accomplished.

How does this have anything to do with the original comment?

QUOTE(whitetigergrowl @ Sep 11 2007, 04:08 PM) *
Its been 3 years since we last saw a video of him. People change. I have 2 pics of me from only about the same time (3 yrs) apart, and when I show people them and tell them its me, they don't believe it. Even though both pics ARE of me. So I wouldn't say its 'fairly obvious' it's not him. As it very well can be him.

Exactly, it's been three years, generally people get older, grayer, and weaker. The man in that video not only doesn't seem to have degenerated at all but seems to have improved by leaps and bounds. Bright colorful skin (Osama is supposed to be suffering from a kidney disorder which frequently effects complexion)and a much healthier looking beard.

QUOTE(whitetigergrowl @ Sep 11 2007, 04:08 PM) *
All you or I or anyone else can do is speculate and draw up our own conclusions.

Which is exactly what we're doing here, if you don't like our conversation feel free to shut the ###### up.
Chris T
QUOTE(Atlantis Services @ Sep 12 2007, 06:07 AM) *
I do not like Osama Bin Laden and I do not support his acts of hate, fear, or threats. But when he isn't requesting or acting for such, he sounds much like you or I. I find that odd in some sense.

That some of the things he can say can be agreeable, while so many of the other things he continues to say, do, or support sicken me without end.

That's because he wants to try to get moderates on side.
Leone Club
The double post there should explain alien story. cool.gif

QUOTE(whitetigergrowl @ Sep 11 2007, 02:51 PM) *
I'm convinced aliens exist.

Jason H
QUOTE(CTerry @ Sep 12 2007, 09:01 AM) *
That's because he wants to try to get moderates on side.


Yeah.. Convieniently leaves out that China is the world's #2 polluter.. And on track to be #1 by a massive margin in 20 years.

Some of these countries should probably realize that we'll be quite unlikely to supply foreign aid to them when the oil supplies they're sitting on dry up.

At least India has a good racket going.. global call center.. I mean, if you call IPS.. You talk to Josh? He's in India. Covers the accent perfectly. You can hardly tell.. Fools alot of people.
whitetigergrowl
QUOTE
Of course "facts" can mean a great deal of things, with your line of thinking though, they can never mean anything. You completely break down any sort of interactive intellectual discussion by disarming anything someone says with the almighty rule of, "Oh YEAH?! Says who?!"


What is your idea of a fact? Facts are usually the omnipotent side of truth. For example:

"Both of the World Trade Centers collapsed on 9/11."

Obviously, that's a fact. Much of the human population knows this. It's something thats undeniable to those that know about it. There is only 1 form of fact. The known truth.

"Both World Trade Centers collapsed on 9/11 because bombs went off inside them. The planes had nothing to do with it."

That IS NOT a fact. Obviously anyone with half a brain knows this. Obviously the planes DID have something to do with it otherwise the buildings would not have collapsed that day. It would have been just another day. And the bombs side of it is not fact either as no bomb material has ever been found to support that. Just people picking apart crappy quality videos hoping to find that 'holy grail' of a conspiracy.

Long story short, if you start having multiple 'facts', then what happens is they just null out each other and the real facts get muddled in with the 'this is my opinion' facts. The facts then become irrelevant. Hundreds of people saw the planes hit the Pentagon and WTC. Those are facts. There is simply no way to throw up a 'conspiracy theory fact' without taking what they saw into consideration. They saw the events from different angles and such, but they cannot simply be ignored or discredited. You may get varying stories from what they saw at their angle, but the overwhelming consenus is that planes hit the WTC's and the Pentagon.

You may think Osama is dead, but then again, it's also just as likely he's alive. Until there is undeniable proof and fact to back up he is dead, or that it wasnt him in that video, it is just personal speculation and assumption.

QUOTE
Exactly, it's been three years, generally people get older, grayer, and weaker. The man in that video not only doesn't seem to have degenerated at all but seems to have improved by leaps and bounds. Bright colorful skin (Osama is supposed to be suffering from a kidney disorder which frequently effects complexion)and a much healthier looking beard.


So now your an expert on the human condition? You said it yourself. People change over time and in any number of directions. Then again, how do you know the Osama you saw before, was really him and not a double then?! OMG! Maybe this is really him and we just don't realize it! Whatever the case, the voice is his. Which means there is a high probability even if it wasn't him in the video, the real one is still alive and for obvious reasons hiding his condition. And that's what matters, is that he is alive. That's all we need to know. But hey, we're all just a bunch of armchair experts here. We aren't actually involved with any of this. We know more than our govt because we can sit at home figuring this stuff out by surfing the internet and watching this stuff on TV.

QUOTE
Which is exactly what we're doing here, if you don't like our conversation feel free to shut the ###### up
.

Feel free to take your own advice at any time. wink.gif

QUOTE
Anyways, I'm no video analyst, but that beard is most certainly fake.


So if it's on a person, be it a double or whatever, it's just gotta be a fake beard right? Ummm yeah. That makes no sense. I wouldn't say it most certainly is a fake. I would say it's possible its a fake beard. But just as likely it's the guy's real beard. Double or not. I see guys with hair on their head I think is fake. But sadly it's real. So much for it being most certainly fake...
idav
QUOTE(whitetigergrowl @ Sep 13 2007, 02:27 AM) *
it is just personal speculation and assumption.

Which is what I've been saying, and what' this discussion has been since the git go. Thanks for pointing out how truly absurd you're being, it really helps out that you can just make one statement that proves this instead of me having to pick apart your entire post again.


Who's putting you up to this? Your level of misunderstanding is so immense that you can't be serious. Hardy har har, gentlemen.
Rikki
WTG: I'm no conspiracy theorist either, but blindly believing what the government says is equally as stupid. It's been shown many many times in the past that governments lie and deceive. I don't really understand your attitude towards those that aren't taking everything for face value, yet aren't crazy nutcases looking for the 'troof'.
Jaime
QUOTE
"Both World Trade Centers collapsed on 9/11 because bombs went off inside them. The planes had nothing to do with it."

That IS NOT a fact. Obviously anyone with half a brain knows this. Obviously the planes DID have something to do with it otherwise the buildings would not have collapsed that day. It would have been just another day. And the bombs side of it is not fact either as no bomb material has ever been found to support that. Just people picking apart crappy quality videos hoping to find that 'holy grail' of a conspiracy.

But what caused WTC7 to collapse all while the other surround buildings were structurally fine? No plane crashed into it.
idav
Exactly right Rikki. He takes the same position my brother does on this stuff.

"Dude you'll never know the truth, George Bush gets an intelligence briefing with every meal, you think you know more than him?!"

Yes, lets all just be 100% complacent. There is nothing to see here folks, don't worry your pretty little heads about thinking or any of that nonsense. Our government was established on a system of checks and balances right? There obviously couldn't be any possibility of corruption or lieing. Just be happy and continue to consume everything around you. Hey Mr. Your Starbucks Double Cappafrappaspressachino is starting to get cold, stop thinking about current affairs and get to work on those TPS reports.
idav
QUOTE(Jaime @ Sep 13 2007, 08:53 AM) *
But what caused WTC7 to collapse all while the other surround buildings were structurally fine? No plane crashed into it.

We really don't need to go down that road yet again.

You can find scientific and rational explanations for basically all the contested events surrounding 9/11 here.

These explanations were formed not by people trying to prove that there was nothing fishy going on, but by experts objectively looking at an event and determining the most likely cause based on the information we have.
Jason H
QUOTE(Jaime @ Sep 13 2007, 08:53 AM) *
But what caused WTC7 to collapse all while the other surround buildings were structurally fine? No plane crashed into it.


Umm... Several added tons of debris on its roof, along with the fires inside it that were allowed to burn uncontrolled?

Again.. I offer up the challenge.. Let me drop several tons of concrete and steel on top of your head and set your ass on fire.. We'll see if you collapse.

If you don't.. I'll buy into your cockamamie theory.

Oh.. And on your middle floors.. We'll also need to strap several canisters of diesel fuel.. We do, after all, want an accurate reconstruction.
Jaime
QUOTE(Jason H @ Sep 13 2007, 02:06 PM) *
If you don't.. I'll buy into your cockamamie theory.

Well that's funny because I don't recall making a theory over WTC7. You are getting ahead of yourself and making presumptions. All I did was ask a simple question with an open mind. Believe it or not - not all of us are narrowminded. wink.gif
whitetigergrowl
QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 13 2007, 06:45 AM) *
Which is what I've been saying, and what' this discussion has been since the git go. Thanks for pointing out how truly absurd you're being, it really helps out that you can just make one statement that proves this instead of me having to pick apart your entire post again.

Who's putting you up to this? Your level of misunderstanding is so immense that you can't be serious. Hardy har har, gentlemen.


And somehow you are making any sense? You are suggesting a Wag the Dog scenario. Would it matter if the president was Republican, Democrat or Independent? Would that make a difference to you? Ask me. I don't trust ANY politician. But I'm also not ignorant enough to believe they are all liars. I believe the terrorists like Osama are doing what they are doing. Other govts have confirmed that. even non-US friendly ones. Was it Osama in that tape? Only a few people know. And we aren't it. All we can do is assume. And we know what assuming does.

QUOTE(Rikki @ Sep 13 2007, 06:47 AM) *
WTG: I'm no conspiracy theorist either, but blindly believing what the government says is equally as stupid. It's been shown many many times in the past that governments lie and deceive. I don't really understand your attitude towards those that aren't taking everything for face value, yet aren't crazy nutcases looking for the 'troof'.


A person doesn't have to take the govt. at face value. Then again there are alot of anti-govt spooks out there that use events like 9/11 as their own personal tool to further anti-govt attitudes. No govt is perfect and every govt to some level lies. We all know that. But when it's to the point that we are ignoring other facts so blindly just to further our own beliefs, then there is a problem. Especially if known facts are being ignored in their favor. As well, it's a fact that most of us are not privy to intelligence that the govt does know about that we obviously don't. Which usually means most of us are just coming up with half baked ideals on things in regards to the govt or specific situations revolving around it. There is simply no way to make an informed judgment beyond half baked beliefs or ideals.

It's fact. They know more about things going on than the average 9-5 Joe does. As they should. They may not tell us everything (for obvious reasons). They may have to lie at times (for obvious reasons). But it doesn't mean that to some extent things aren't happening they way they seem to be.

QUOTE(Jaime @ Sep 13 2007, 06:53 AM) *
But what caused WTC7 to collapse all while the other surround buildings were structurally fine? No plane crashed into it.


I guess having 2 of the worlds tallest buildings crash into it isn't good enough? As well, many conspiracy theorists have been largely ignoring other known facts about WTC 7 and the damage sustained to it. It's known by everyone that was there, WTC7 experienced severe structural damage. In fact, I remember the news people reporting at the time that they expected WTC 7 to collapse at some point because of the damage. Anyone that knows anything about controlled demolitions knows that it takes quite a long time, and to have the charges put into strategic positions to bring a building down in a controlled collapse. However, if a building starts collapsing in on itself it can create the same effect. I mean, when buildings collapse during an earthquake, how many just 'tip over'? Most collapse on themselves. OMG they must all be controlled demolitions right?

Remember, most of these conspiracy theories are being made by people that were not there. They are 'analyzing' video footage. But how reliable is that? Seriously. It's just a bunch of armchair experts at that point. And why have no explosive materials been found at either WTC 1&2 or WTC 7's sites? There would have been blast powder and such left over from it. Regardless, the best and only way would to gain proof would have been there. Not looking at video online. Who do you think knows more? People that were there, or people that weren't?

Some conspiracy theorists are using pre-conceived notions on how they think things should have been. But let's face it, mankind is constantly proven wrong on how we 'think' things should have been or reacted versus how it really did happen. So, just because it happened in an unknown or unexpected way, we freak out like our ancestors did over every little thing they didn't understand. Think about it. When was the last time a commuter plane slammed into a 110 story office building loaded with fuel for a cross country flight? When was the last time 2 of the largest buildings collapsed under the same manner? So obviously things just possibly couldn't have happened the way they did. There ALWAYS has to be some sort of ulterior motive. Can you tell me the last time something like this happened?

QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 13 2007, 06:54 AM) *
Exactly right Rikki. He takes the same position my brother does on this stuff.

"Dude you'll never know the truth, George Bush gets an intelligence briefing with every meal, you think you know more than him?!"

Yes, lets all just be 100% complacent. There is nothing to see here folks, don't worry your pretty little heads about thinking or any of that nonsense. Our government was established on a system of checks and balances right? There obviously couldn't be any possibility of corruption or lieing. Just be happy and continue to consume everything around you. Hey Mr. Your Starbucks Double Cappafrappaspressachino is starting to get cold, stop thinking about current affairs and get to work on those TPS reports.


Really? Its pathetic. Show me a govt that isn't corrupt and hasn't done things to its people or other countries that isn't appalling. Even if you can name a few, that still means a majority of govts are doing things we don't like. What are we gonna do about it? Keep spouting off conspiracy theories online and keep whining about their Wag the Dog scenarios every time something happens because we don't want to believe them? Yeah...thats effective.

QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 13 2007, 07:13 AM) *
We really don't need to go down that road yet again.

You can find scientific and rational explanations for basically all the contested events surrounding 9/11 here.

These explanations were formed not by people trying to prove that there was nothing fishy going on, but by experts objectively looking at an event and determining the most likely cause based on the information we have.


I wouldn't consider those scientific or rational explanations. Unless you consider grainy video still images of the same side of the building (why do we never see the other side?) some sort of scientific explanation. That whole website is done by just another joe.

I have no idea how you would consider those 'scientific' or rational. It's someone trying to pick apart crappy quality video images from 1 side of the building. IGNORING the hundreds of thousands of people that WERE there and witnessed it. I guess some people expect when a building to collapse, it has to happen cleanly if its not a controlled demolition. Right? And that some regular joe that can pick apart a crappy video online, has to be having a scientific or rational explanation. Those that WERE there mean nothing. So, why not see what actual scientists, demolition experts, etc. have to say? Or are they all part of the same govt conspiracy too? You will find some that vary in opinion. But most are once again just going by videos. I wouldn't consider video enough proof. Or stick figure drawings by people that weren't there. Get the wrong angle and its amazing how much you miss. rolleyes.gif

I guess there is a reason they call them theories and not facts right? Would you rather listen to a guy from France that wasn't there? Or someone that was there and involved? Ponder that.

I'm just curious. Who benefits from all of this conspiracy theorying? The people? Or the people that want us to follow their beliefs and ideals?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology...842.html?page=5
Jason H
QUOTE(Jaime @ Sep 13 2007, 10:11 AM) *
Well that's funny because I don't recall making a theory over WTC7. You are getting ahead of yourself and making presumptions. All I did was ask a simple question with an open mind. Believe it or not - not all of us are narrowminded. wink.gif


There is the accepted scientific theory as to the collapse. Asking what caused it implies that either you don't know of the scientific theory (Which I gave you credit for being smart enough to actually have heard of that.. If I was wrong in that assumtion, well, there you go) or that you don't accept the scientific theory, which is based on fact.

Is scientific theory correct always? No. Should it be questioned? Yes. Have I heard one, single alternate theory that has even a shred of legitimacy? Nope.

The only other theories that I have heard, which all involve a giant conspiracy, are cockamamie. Which, again, is a legitimate word and applicable in this instance, having an accepted definition of ridiculous, pointless, or nonsensical.

9-11 conspiracists are no better than Holocaust deniers. I'd love to know, on both fronts, whether people ACTUALLY believe the things they're spouting, or if they're just lying to cover up or bring attention to themselves. I don't know which is worse. How does the logic work there? Ok. You've got Skinhead Bob.. He wants to bring back the Nazi party.. Assume it's because he's been around the Klan his whole life.. So, he knows the Holocaust happened, but he's going to say it didn't, because more people will like the Nazi's if they can blame the murder of millions on the murder victims. BRILLIANT!
idav
@ Whitetigergrowl: I really fail to see where we disagree on most of the points you make. You keep arguing with me because your reading comprehension level seems to be about on par with a 3rd grader.

Let me clear a few things up for you since you can't infer them from my posts:

1) I hold no party affiliation, I'm equally skeptic of all government for the reasons you've elaborated on and others.
2) I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
3) I'm not an "expert" on any of the things we've discussed today. I've had no formal education or certification. Thus comments I make are to be considered opinion rather than me preaching truth. (It's sad that I have to point that out to you)
4) You are holding this discussion to a double standard on every point you make. Your saying, "Z0MG, dewd ur ideas are not fact!" While both you and I have both stated very specifically that from our vantage point all we can do is guess based on the information we get.

This is basically how our conversation has gone:

Me: "Hey, I wouldn't be surprised if Osama wasn't really Osama"
You: "Oh my heavens!, you can't prove that! Stop talking, I hate you conspiracy theorists. You all are stupid and don't base your opinions on anything but misinformation and sensationalism. GTFO MAH INTERNETZZZ!!!!!!one!1"
Me: "I'm sorry you misunderstood me, I was just saying that it wouldn't surprise me."
You: "But you can't prove that! Your a loon!"

Ok, time to be nice.

QUOTE
Some conspiracy theorists are using pre-conceived notions on how they think things should have been. But let's face it, mankind is constantly proven wrong on how we 'think' things should have been or reacted versus how it really did happen. So, just because it happened in an unknown or unexpected way, we freak out like our ancestors did over every little thing they didn't understand. Think about it. When was the last time a commuter plane slammed into a 110 story office building loaded with fuel for a cross country flight? When was the last time 2 of the largest buildings collapsed under the same manner? So obviously things just possibly couldn't have happened the way they did. There ALWAYS has to be some sort of ulterior motive. Can you tell me the last time something like this happened?

You put that better than I probably ever have been able to. I agree 100% with you. If you'd only read what I'm saying you'd see that we agree on a great deal of things.

Did you even go to 911myths.com? They site many of the same experts and sources that the Popular Mechanics editors did in their book. I'm kind of doubting that you did in fact go there and browse around. The site is anti-conspiracy, not pro-conspiracy. BTW you should catch the youtube videos of the brats that made Loose Change vs. the Popular Mechanics videos. It's hilarious to watch the makes of the crockumentary squirm in their chairs when their misconceptions are met with cool, calm, calculated science.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=stVmEmJ666M that's part one. There are I think 4 parts.

So whitetigergrowl, what I'm still trying to decide is if your ego-inflating holier-than-thou attitude is a product of your apparent lack of communication skills or if you just like being this way. I'm not to worried about upsetting you as I'm sure your selective reading skills will skip over these parts that bring my post to it's crux.

Is this guy annoying the hell out of anyone else?

I dugg up an old post that shows you I'm one of the good guys WTG, http://forums.invisionpower.com/index.php?...t&p=1496023
idav
QUOTE(Jason H @ Sep 13 2007, 11:28 AM) *
9-11 conspiracists are no better than Holocaust deniers. I'd love to know, on both fronts, whether people ACTUALLY believe the things they're spouting, or if they're just lying to cover up or bring attention to themselves. I don't know which is worse. How does the logic work there? Ok. You've got Skinhead Bob.. He wants to bring back the Nazi party.. Assume it's because he's been around the Klan his whole life.. So, he knows the Holocaust happened, but he's going to say it didn't, because more people will like the Nazi's if they can blame the murder of millions on the murder victims. BRILLIANT!

I completely agree with your argument. But, there are always other ways to look at things. Some are more accurate than others, some are more taken out of context than others. We basically systematically eliminated the native Americans when this country was being founded, but we don't generally entertain the idea of the US committing genocide as part of our history. Yes, we are taught of the events, but no one ever uses that word. Of course, there are many differences between the Hitlers Final Solution and our westward expansion, but I feel there is still a comparison to be made. Anyways, before whitetigergrowl dissects this post and farms what he wants out of it to argue with, just let me reiterate that I do agree with you.
Josh Harris
QUOTE(Jason H @ Sep 12 2007, 11:25 PM) *
At least India has a good racket going.. global call center.. I mean, if you call IPS.. You talk to Josh? He's in India. Covers the accent perfectly. You can hardly tell.. Fools alot of people.


With a deep southern accent.
Jason H
QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 13 2007, 01:35 PM) *
@ Whitetigergrowl: I really fail to see where we disagree on most of the points you make. You keep arguing with me because your reading comprehension level seems to be about on par with a 3rd grader.

Let me clear a few things up for you since you can't infer them from my posts:

1) I hold no party affiliation, I'm equally skeptic of all government for the reasons you've elaborated on and others.
2) I'm not a conspiracy theorist.


Now.. In a way, you've got to see that you're having your cake and eating it, too with that statement. Or trying to. If you don't believe what the governement is telling you, then they pretty much must be conspiring to hide the truth.. So... How can you be a skeptic of the government and NOT a conspiracy theorist?

The only way you get to say both of those statements is if you believe the government has told you the truth that they believe, but that their truth is incorrect. Now.. In some situations, I can see where you could deal with that.. I don't see any 9/11 issues where you could claim that. It's pretty cut and dried, A or B with most of the situations that day. I mean, either you believe that the jet fuel fires coupled with a plane flying into the building at 550 mph caused the buildings to come down, or you don't. I think there are people who don't believe the Warren Report, but they also don't believe that Oswald was the lone gunman. That's a good example of not believing the government but not being a conspiracy theorist.. But the VAST majority think the Warren Report is a complete fabrication and the government is concealing the truth. Those are the real conspiracy theorists. It works in that situation. I don't see how it works with 9/11.



QUOTE(z0mgpwnr @ Sep 13 2007, 01:50 PM) *
I completely agree with your argument. But, there are always other ways to look at things. Some are more accurate than others, some are more taken out of context than others. We basically systematically eliminated the native Americans when this country was being founded, but we don't generally entertain the idea of the US committing genocide as part of our history. Yes, we are taught of the events, but no one ever uses that word. Of course, there are many differences between the Hitlers Final Solution and our westward expansion, but I feel there is still a comparison to be made. Anyways, before whitetigergrowl dissects this post and farms what he wants out of it to argue with, just let me reiterate that I do agree with you.


Don't disagree with you a bit.. I don't know how close to genocide it was MEANT to be, though you are correct that is how it turned out.. We kept moving them from their land that we gave them in the first place (And yes.. Even I see how wrong that statement is, but to avoid opening another whole can of worms.. let's just let it go).. I don't think the government was purposefully trying to kill all Native Americans, though that was close to the end result. Our government does do a decent job of making amends.. Native Americans do have basically self-rule in the US, on their reservations, which is why you have so many Indian casinos. We paid a tidy sum to the Japanese who were interned during WWII. Of course.. there's one glaring omission there.. I'm not even going to get into that one, because don't we have enough fights going on in this topic already? You want to talk about that one.. Start a new topic.

Reason I bring this up is that Accidental Murder is called.. Well, different in different places, but it's not called Murder.. Negligent Homicide, Manslaughter, etc. It doesn't make it any more right and it doesn't change the outcome.. But, applying that reasoning.. I'd say Genocide is not the proper word.

Oh, and check THIS video out..

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=5528

Effin' hilarious.
Strange_Will
QUOTE(Jason H @ Sep 13 2007, 07:06 AM) *
Umm... Several added tons of debris on its roof, along with the fires inside it that were allowed to burn uncontrolled?

Again.. I offer up the challenge.. Let me drop several tons of concrete and steel on top of your head and set your ass on fire.. We'll see if you collapse.

If you don't.. I'll buy into your cockamamie theory.

Oh.. And on your middle floors.. We'll also need to strap several canisters of diesel fuel.. We do, after all, want an accurate reconstruction.

Not a huge conspiracy theorist, but closer WTC towers stood while WTC7 came down, there are some things that bug me, and due to a rushed report it was probably incomplete.

It would probably make more sense to say the local seismic activity of WTC 1 and 2 falling could hamper it's structural integrity maybe... but more debris fell on closer buildings, they still stood. Shooty construction maybe on WTC7? Too bad none of that was in the rushed report... Basically no matter how you chop it up, someone ######ed up HUGE, and thats what allows conspiracy theories to bloom.


Also, using human bodies as an example makes you just as bad as tin-foiled hat conspiracy theorists, it's one of the worst remarks I've heard on the whole 9/11 conspiracy talk. And IIRC Diesel fuel doesn't burn like regular gasoline, you compress it to combust it.
Strange_Will
QUOTE(Jason H @ Sep 13 2007, 08:28 AM) *
9-11 conspiracists are no better than Holocaust deniers. I'd love to know, on both fronts, whether people ACTUALLY believe the things they're spouting, or if they're just lying to cover up or bring attention to themselves. I don't know which is worse. How does the logic work there? Ok. You've got Skinhead Bob.. He wants to bring back the Nazi party..

Goodwin's Law at work. original.gif
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